Doctor's Wife - Disturbing Realization - Spoilers : comments ["You look Time Lord."]

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If House didn't try to kill them, the TARDIS's human body would not have been returned to the main console room and House would not have been destroyed; House did have an option even if the Doctor did not explicitly present it as such.

On the other hand, can you imagine any single other being as integral to the Doctor's identity as the TARDIS? I see him as being at his most ruthless in 'her' (if gender is at all relevant for an 11th dimensional being) defense.

As for the TARDIS, I suspect she had no scruples about killing House whatsoever, given what House did to so many of her 'sisters' and attempted to do to her. Does the TARDIS miss the other TARDIS's? What kind of a community, if any, did they have?

One interesting thing I saw mentioned in another review is that there's zero curiosity about or exploration of Idris-before-she-was-TARDIS in the episode; it's a horrific thing to happen to anyone, and a hole ripe for fans to fill in.

Just my two cents.

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Actually, the TARDIS doesn't have a human body and it was made clear the body of Idris was dying. Which is why I phrased it as "House and TARDIS couldn't co-exist."

Some may say it was done before: But why couldn't have House and TARDIS change places. Yes, he would have been in Idris' dying body, but it worked for Cassandra.... She was able to accept her death.

TARDIS has always been a 'her' all the way back to the 70s ;) But you have a point about her missing her sisters. It was made clear when they looked over the TARDIS graveyard. My own head canon is that all TARDIS are linked at a level that is much deeper than a TARDIS and her Time Lord are linked (Any TARDIS/Any Time Lord). TARDIS has been my favorite character since the 70s, so I have quite a bit of head canon about her :P It's nice to see a healthy chunk of my head-canon is now 'official canon.' I digress. I still think she might have learned something from the Doctor in all those years together, and why not push House into the dying body of Idris?

I thought about that... didn't write about it, but the first time I watched the episode, I was quite upset with what happened to Idris. Nearly stopped watching the show that first time. But yes, the "Asteroid House before the Doctor's Arrival" leaves a lot for fans to toy with.

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why not push House into the dying body of Idris?

Two reasons I can think of: (1) We'd had two episodes to get to know Cassandra; House is a horrific monster who's spent the entire episode torturing the main characters. I'd have zero interest in watching his death scene when I could be watching a goodbye scene between the Doctor and the TARDIS. (2) According to Gaiman in the Guardian yesterday, he wanted it to be ambiguous whether House did die (apparently in an early script it was obvious that he didn't).

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1) Can't we have both? My own evil side wanted to see him 'suffer' in his death :P

2) That's all well and good. It didn't seem that ambiguous when we could hear House screaming - and 'fade'... Yes, that may have been author intent at one point. But, unless you're willing to say the TARDIS and him CAN co-exist, or that he killed the TARDIS. I don't like either of those two options, so I go with the fact that he was killed, unless he shows up again.

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Actually, the TARDIS doesn't have a human body and it was made clear the body of Idris was dying.

Good point. It wasn't the TARDIS' body because she wasn't native to the body, and calling it hers makes it sound like a house or other possession that could be bought or sold. It's disrespectful to Idris's mortal coil and therefore to Idris, and that was not my intent.

Some may say it was done before: But why couldn't have House and TARDIS change places. Yes, he would have been in Idris' dying body, but it worked for Cassandra.... She was able to accept her death.

I don't think this was an option. TARDIS wasn't released until the body died, period. Sticking House in a dead body seems problematic if even possible (zombie!House, anyone?). The difference between sticking anyone in a about-to-die-within-five-minutes body and killing them outright seems like mere semantics to me: you're still condemning them to death and their death is still on your hands. Yes, one gives a less violent death than the other and a little time to come to terms (if you can do that fully in five minutes or less), but ultimately death is death and killing is killing.

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but ultimately death is death and killing is killing.

Fair point. Just seemed less violent in my mind to put him back in Idris' Body. Sentencing House to experience what he had done to so many others? Not that it matters, what's canon is canon now :P It's just a preference I have.

SM has a much more 'willing to kill' Doctor than I have ever seen before - other than that one moment of Seven and Skaro, but that's another story :P - it's just not sitting well with me, especially when he touts "DW is a children's show." Well, if it IS? I don't want my kids learning that killing without remorse is okay.

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The Doctor has always been willing to kill. He almost beat a caveman to death in the very first story. And there has been a lot of instances since then.

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Ah, but did he enjoy it?

I guess that's my point. Kill, yes. As a last resort and usually when other avenues had been explored/exhausted. Not as a first option and not using hypnosis to turn others into killers for him (The Silents). Not telling others they should kill. If they make that choice, they make it.... It just doesn't sit right with me.

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>>Kill, yes. As a last resort and usually when other avenues had been explored/exhausted.

Nope, not always. And he's done far worse things than kick some aliens off the Earth.

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What's he done worse than putting a post-hypnotic suggestion to the entire human race to kill another species?

Because THAT is pretty horrific in my book.

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He's committed outright genocide about four times now IIRC.

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Yes he has. (More than that, if you take into account what 'The Moment' did in the Time War) Typically the Daleks and usually after giving the species a chance.

But with the Silents, he ENJOYED it. With the Silents, HE didn't do it: he hypnotized the humans into doing it FOR him. So I stand by my reasoning that the issue with the Silents is far more horrific than anything else he has done.

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>>But with the Silents, he ENJOYED it.

I see no evidence of that...

He turned a parasitic, sadistic species' own power against themselves in order to kick them off the planet and make sure they stayed away. Remember that these guys had been manipulating and slaughtering people for thousands of years, while humans were unaware of it. It's not like he had much choice in kicking their asses.

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Then I suggest you watch the episode again. He rightly enjoyed it. He was giddy, excited and even falsely offered them 'a chance'. I'm not the only one who saw it that way.

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I've watched the episode several times, and to me he seems to be acting his normal, blustery "you've gone too far and now you're in for some trouble" self - in fact his whole speech at the end reminded me very much of Ten...

>>I'm not the only one who saw it that way

OK? I'm not the only person who saw it my way, either, but whether or not people agree doesn't make either of our points more valid.

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It was not Ten at all, though. Ten was a 'no second chances' kind of man - but he gave a chance. Not the kind of man to taunt and put a front as if he was offering a choice, but then "Nope. Instead I'm going to blow every last one of you to bits... and for added fun, the entire human race will kill you at your own words and they won't even know it. Ohhh YAY!"

It really wasn't even clear what the Silents did to people, we saw what ONE did to Joy... but even that one seemed curious about her. Oh Amy yelled that he didn't have to kill her, but maybe he did, maybe that's how they worked. It might well be that death is a by-product of how they get to know people.

The issue is: we were never given enough information to know. Which, admittedly is shoddy writing. But then, SM could have either 1) given us more information about the Silents or 2) not had Eleven go all giddy over killing them.

But since we were given neither. It is a disturbing trend that SM has begun and as I said elsewhere, these are not lessons I want my kids to learn.

Killing is killing and it should never be celebrated. Is it necessary sometimes? Yes... but I don't want my kids to think that killing is fun and cool. Which is the message that SM has sent us this Season.

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But with the Silents, he ENJOYED it.

I think it's a matter of perception. One person's enjoyment is another person's expedient and successful solution.

What I note that Eleven does that his predecessors did not (or perhaps they did not; it's arguable, at any rate) is that he makes up his mind as to what needs to be done and executes on his decision without looking back. It's an interesting trait that been picked up from embryonic nuances. I think it harkens all the way back to One ready to bash the caveman's head in out of nothing more than fear for his personal safety; even Two once had enough chilling lack of respect for life --- and human, at that --- to say "They're just soldiers" when his companion commented on the horror of battlefield death. What Eleven does with it, though, is very interesting, and I'll be the first to admit that it's probably down to some brilliant acting rather than an intentionally written characterization. Eleven, young as the acting playing him is, comes across as an old man, one who's seen some serious, serious evil and has learned that you have to play evil's game at times for the "greater good", whatever that it. He may feel regret for things he's done, but that doesn't keep him from either owning the actions or from being ready to do them again if that's what it's going to take to take care of a problem. Not a nice old man, not even necessarily a good old man, but a solid old man who has done and remains ready to do arguably bad things if those things will correct the situation with any hope of permanency. (And now I'll stop, or my little essay I'm filling in gaps on will be totally redundant by the time I post it. And besides, I'm reminding myself of the two sergeants in the movie "Platoon".)

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I guess the difference I'm seeing is that with the others, the Companions stepped up and questioned his actions. Here, it seems River especially, that they encourage him.

And once or twice I get. I don't like, but I get. This seems to be a direction Moff is taking the Doctor that just doesn't feel right. I don't know, I'm still trying to sort out the details as to WHY - hence the discussion :P But, honestly, if this keeps up, I might have to retract my statement of: "If I can learn to enjoy Six, I can learn to enjoy any Doctor." I really DON'T want to say that :(

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This.

The pacifist, anti-violence Doctor didn't show up until well into the 4th or 5th Doctor's tenure I think.

And even then sort of came-and-went according to script writer/editor whim.

I was just watching Seeds of Doom earlier and the Doctor punched out a few people. I recall Pertwee knocking heads a bit as well, with all his Venusuvian Aikido.

Colin Baker's Doctor was also pretty ruthless at times.

There's plenty of precident for this, actually.

Plus, I really don't think he "enjoyed" any of it. I don't see him being gleeful with the death of either House or the Silents (more just relieved the danger was past, if you ask me).

The Doctor has never exactly been Gandhi. He does what needs to be done to stop whatever needs to be stopped. Does that make him arrogant? Possibly. But he has a habit of being right in the end.

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There was always some level of thought (or the companions stopping him and making him think).

Also, Venusuvian Aikido is more about self-defense than killing. If Eleven had punched the Silents out, fine. But out-right killing them? It doesn't sit well with me.

I don't expect people to agree with me. I usually hold to things that most people don't like: Love and Monsters - I don't think it was THAT bad. For what it was, I quite liked that episode (But then, I've always preferred Jackie to Rose :P)

I'm just trying to explain why I don't see it like everyone else. If this were a one-time thing, I wouldn't be pleased, but I could accept it. But this seems to be a direction that Moffett is taking Who that I am just not comfortable with at all. And to the Moff I have this to say: If there's a reason for it, fine, then give me a reason.

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Re: Idris, I've been doing some more reading. Quoting Neil Gaiman,

You know, in early drafts we learned a lot more about Idris, and she was imprisoned on the asteroid, and she didn’t become the TARDIS until about 20 minutes in. But it only got interesting once she became the TARDIS. So we moved that stuff up.

So much Auntie and Uncle etc backstory in my head and in previous scripts — and there was even a lot more that we shot. Adrian and Elizabeth were funny and creepy at the same time, and they had dialogue that indicated that normally the TARDISes when placed in human form say a few words then burn up and die: what our TARDIS did in Idris’s body was unheard of. But then, it was too long, so those scenes, along with many wonderful Uncle and Auntie lines, went away.

Wish I could get my hands on some of those earlier scripts!

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OOO I agree, that would be very cool to read!!!

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March