miss_s_b: (Who: Three (Polarity))
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posted by [personal profile] miss_s_b at 11:02am on 08/05/2011
An excerpt from my review of last night's episode:
Doctor Who is fantasy, and nothing else in it is realistic, so why the *naughtywords* does the sexism have to be? We can suspend disbelief long enough to believe that a guy can travel through time and space in a blue wooden box (which should be concrete anyway), and that every three years or so he completely changes size, shape, and personality but is still the same person, and that's fine, but a female pirate would be pushing it too far?
Now, the writer of this week's show is particularly bad for this sort of stuff, I admit, but it is a problem with the show in general, and indeed, television in general.

And I am genuinely interested in why some subjects are easy to suspend disbelief on and others aren't, at least in the minds of TV production crews and writers, and Who ones in particular.

Opinions?
Mood:: 'contemplative' contemplative
There are 15 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
gehayi: (rory and amy (gehayi))
posted by [personal profile] gehayi at 10:26am on 08/05/2011
Actually, what I found myself tripping over was the following:

1) That the Doctor could not/would not heal Rory, even though he has always been presented as "a doctor of practically everything."

2) That the TARDIS could not/would not heal Rory, even though the TARDIS has a sickbay--in fact, all TARDISes since the Type 21 had sickbays. And since the TARDIS is a Type 40...well, you'd think it would be able to provide oxygen for a man that nearly drowned. Oxygen is standard medical equipment in Western hospitals; shouldn't the TARDIS--that miraculous alien tech--be able to manufacture oxygen if it doesn't have any on hand?

3) That Rory could talk Amy through the process of how to provide CPR. That's it. One conversation and she could do it well enough to save his life. WTF?

4) That a man from eighteenth-century England who had no scientific training could sail an alien spaceship to the stars.

I really did like Amy as the Pirate Queen, though. I just wish she'd been written as...well, the hero, and not the female sidekick. You know--brave AND capable.

Edited Date: 2011-05-08 10:28 am (UTC)
gehayi: (martha jones (cedara))
posted by [personal profile] gehayi at 10:30am on 08/05/2011
Looking back, I've just realized--yeah, I noticed the sexism. I was annoyed by it. A lot.

But it didn't surprise me.

I wish that it had been so rare, so out of place, so foreign to the show that it had surprised me.
miss_s_b: River Song and The Eleventh Doctor have each other's back (Default)
posted by [personal profile] miss_s_b at 10:57am on 08/05/2011
Yeah, it didn't surprise me either, and that's what worries me. If I have become so inured to it that even I find it unsurprising...

Whereas Rory nearly dying AGAIN just made me yawn, and by that point I was too busy doing Robert Picardo impressions and giggling to pay too much attention.
gehayi: (sally kempton quote (palpableparadox))
posted by [personal profile] gehayi at 11:10am on 08/05/2011
Oh, I wasn't IMPRESSED by Rory almost dying. At this point, Rory has become Kenny from South Park. I was just annoyed as hell at the massive illogic.

Well, that and the fact that the only female guest character was not only presented for three-quarters of the story as a villain picking on the poor menz--why? because she's EVIL!--but literally couldn't speak for herself. Hell, Amy couldn't even figure out what she was supposed to do when the Siren held out her hands; a male character had to figure out what she meant and then tell Amy, just as a male character had to tell Amy how to save him.
miss_s_b: River Song and The Eleventh Doctor have each other's back (Default)
posted by [personal profile] miss_s_b at 11:16am on 08/05/2011
Oh cthulhu yes to all that.
jhumor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] jhumor at 01:27pm on 08/05/2011
I didn't see the sexism you mention... I'm a female, I've done fencing and a bit of stage sword fighting. It was simply completely unbelievable to me that Amy did that better than she did CPR... It has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with logic...

In reply to gheyi

1) and 2) I agree
3) No, it IS possible, I've been a CPR Instructor with the American Red Cross... it's easier to do/tell about CPR than it is to sword fight. What was unbelievable is that Amy DID give up - and the Doctor and TARDIS did NOTHING >:(

4) But he knew the stuff in the TARDIS, he named them. It wasn't completely believable, no, but there was at least the throw away line about "everything being the same from ship to ship" that he said.

I'm a bit tired of Amy being the savior of every episode - frankly I thought I was watching Doctor Who not "the Amy Pond Show".
gehayi: (donna looking up (knifecontrol))
posted by [personal profile] gehayi at 01:59pm on 08/05/2011
3) No, it IS possible, I've been a CPR Instructor with the American Red Cross... it's easier to do/tell about CPR than it is to sword fight. What was unbelievable is that Amy DID give up - and the Doctor and TARDIS did NOTHING >:(

Someone else got really, really mad about the bad CPR and Amy giving up.

4) But he knew the stuff in the TARDIS, he named them. It wasn't completely believable, no, but there was at least the throw away line about "everything being the same from ship to ship" that he said.

The problem is, I've seen the Brigadier and Unit personnel and a doctor in the British navy all baffled by the TARDIS control room, and I'd expect 20th century military equipment to be a LOT closer to the TARDIS than an 18th-century pirate ship.

So I didn't really buy that throwaway line, either.

I think that the writers aren't really sure what to do with Rory and Amy. They treat her, alternately, like the traditional damsel who has to be rescued and as the savior. They don't seem to realize that the two roles don't mesh very well. And Rory--well, it's hard to put a man in a damsel condition, but they don't want to make him too awesome because then he's competing with the male lead, and of course no one is supposed to be as awesome as the Doctor. Since Rory can't be the savior and since Western society has a tough time conceiving of men as needing rescue--well, the writers probably hit on him dying serendipitously and have just repeated it ever since.

jhumor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] jhumor at 02:12pm on 08/05/2011
That other person is right - it is messy, and it's not easy, but you CAN learn it with a few basic instructions. Though, I will submit that Rory didn't REALLY instruct Amy beyond "just like telly" which IS a load a crap.

3) I'm glad he went into such detail, because I just kind of was all... "There's so much wrong with this, I don't even know where to start, so I'll just brush it off as horrible TV CPR."

4) Being in the military doesn't mean you have knowledge of sailing though. And it all depends on perception. The difference is: Everyone else was so baffled by "bigger on the inside" and trying to sort that out in their heads, that they didn't really LOOK at the controls or what the Doctor was doing. Avery DID. He noticed what the Doctor was doing and in his head, was able to piece it together. I don't know... I was able to buy it - at least more than Amy sword fighting or the CPR bit. But it's my small gem in an episode that I enjoyed until I thought about it, so maybe I'm just not willing to go there :P
ed_rex: (ace)
posted by [personal profile] ed_rex at 02:05pm on 08/05/2011
... but don't ask me to watch the bloody thing again!

As I said in my own review/froth-at-the-mouth-rant of the episode, I thought Gillan pulled off the swash-buckling very well. Maybe not the second-coming of Eroll Flynn, but still ...

What ruined it for me in retrospect, as pointed out above, is that we have no previous knowledge that Amy has any training as a sword-fighter. As I have said, holding even five frightened pirates at bay for any period of time (as Amy most certainly did!) would take quite a lot of experience with a cutlass.
davegodfrey: South Park Me. (Default)
posted by [personal profile] davegodfrey at 09:43am on 09/05/2011
Actually I think the cutlass scene works- the siren will come for you if you get the slightest cut. So all you have to do is wave a cutlass in a menacing manner at them and they'll back off. The risk of getting even a a paper cut is too great. Even a black eye would probably call her.

Although it would be nice if there was a "where did you learn to do that?" joke, which would have explained things.
ed_rex: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] ed_rex at 11:59am on 09/05/2011
YesBut!

Yes, it worked to watch. It doesn't work so well when you think about it. The thing is, Amy didn't just wave her cutless "in a menacing manner" — there was some genuine swordplay there, steel clashing against steel.

But yes, it is Doctor Who, so most of us don't insist on absolute verisimilitude; a "where did you learn to do that" joke would have helped quite a lot.
davegodfrey: South Park Me. (Default)
posted by [personal profile] davegodfrey at 05:19pm on 09/05/2011
I'm trying to think as little as possible about the episode. I'm finding it helps.
ed_rex: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] ed_rex at 06:15pm on 09/05/2011
I'd like to, but I made the mistake of posting about it.

No promises, but if I don't like next week's episode, I'm going to try to just keep my mouth shut about it.
el_staplador: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] el_staplador at 07:08am on 09/05/2011
I wonder if the problem with Saturday's episode was more the heteronormativity, as if someone, somewhere, thought that if you're going to have a mermaid story, all your sailors have to be male. Which, I hasten to add, is by no means an improvement.

(And really, given that they pulled off a request for same-sex marriage in 1969 last week, and that had historical precedent, I think they could have got away with a female pirate or six, and a bisexual mermaid, yes.)
ext_51145: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] andrewhickey.info at 10:28am on 09/05/2011
I think it's down to the innate conservatism of the production team. Whether it be RTD saying "No-one cares about planet Zog" and having people in the year 70 squillion still listening to Britney Spears and watching Big Brother, or Moffat asking "Why can't the Doctor date?" the whole attitude has been that people won't watch unless they have characters they can 'relate' to. Which means in turn that everyone must embody the unthought assumptions of early-21st century small-l-liberal (in the LC use of the word rather than real Liberalism) Western English-speaking people, whether those be positive (so the odious Mme du Pompadour had a black friend) or negative (so everyone is casually sexist whether in the future or the past).
It's a gigantic failure of imagination - a failure to see that the future and the past are both fundamentally different from now, and a failure to imagine that a different worldview is even possible (or that such a thing as a worldview even exists, rather than a bunch of inchoate prejudices).
No-one's interested in the strange and different, after all - the great RTD said so - and unfortunately not being unthinkingly sexist is strange and different at the moment.

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